Nationals - 2013

Discuss specific race events, who is going, timing, etc

Moderator: Al Fernandez

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jeffburch
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Postby jeffburch » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:41 am

Congrats Aaron!

After I saw this video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKkay-wZ9DU
I knew the Trophy was coming Home.

As for the sour grapes, well, your car color may have influenced some of it.:lol:

jb

suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:24 pm

Haha yah I love COTA. My favorite track by far. That was actually the first event I drove the new car in. That was our shakedown to feel the car out. It had rained so it was really slick!
2013 CMC NATIONAL CHAMPION

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TX#11CMC
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Postby TX#11CMC » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:55 pm

Holy crap, that was some amazing driving at COTA!! :o
I hope it doesn't rain next weekend at TWS, hahaha.
-Michael Mosty
TX region #11
"Fox" driver and lovin it!!!
Texas Region - CMC Director

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rsmith350
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Postby rsmith350 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:37 am

Coming to this party late but


BADVENM wrote:
Tech doesn't carry around a rulebook for each race class so I would think it would be up to "our" official or representative.


BS! My IPad is always in the Tech box with all the classes downloaded to PDF.
If anyone ever has a question it's a few swipes away from being answered.
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Todd Covini
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Postby Todd Covini » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:01 pm

Just a couple comments (as it's late) and I'll try to get a Championships CMC Race Director recap out this weekend to document and help with next year's rules revisions. I have all my notes from every driver meeting and every session (including the list of everything that was tech'd.) Just a couple things...

1) We hated to DQ ANYONE for being over on the dyno, but there's a hard & fast red line written right into the rules. No fudge, no discretion, +1 is the same as +100. (Nobody knows this better than Glenn.)

2) There is nothing in the rules about whether wheel weights or valve stems count toward the 18#. Without a hard & fast red line, it's the RD call. If it was that important it should have been in the rules. Most RD's will give the racer the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. (A day will come when you will appreciate that philosophy.)

3) What gets teched is solely the RD/SD's decision. Could pick 1 item, 4 items, left side only, right side only, blue things, red things, 1 car, all cars...doesn't matter. There's no requirement or even past practice to check everything. (Protesting because all 4 wheels weren't checked would not have been fruitful....neither would wheel weights. Without it being in the rules, both the Race Director AND the Executive Appeal will give the racer the benefit of the doubt....and IMO issuing a DQ because of an unwritten rule about 2oz wheel weights or a missing glove box door is wrong. That was my decision and I stand by it.

I really enjoyed the Championships this year and the driving was amazingly clean by everyone! No (real) body contact forms or melee's was a great thing. Kudos to all the CMC racers. I also took a step back from all the tech inspections for all the reasons Adam & Glenn so eloquently mentioned. Tech was told what to check (The week before the event). The SD was consulted and verified for compliance per the rulebook (not the forums or phoning a friend...the rulebook.) Both the Tech Inspector and the SD provided the RD with a "pass or fail" ruling on impounded cars. In the 6+ years I've done this, it was by far the smoothest run impound. No drama. Quick, easy, pass or fail, cut & dry.

Tech & SD made recommendations per the rulebook and the RD finalized them. Your SD, Ed is an AI/CMC regional director. While he races in AI, he keeps abreast of the CMC rules and enforces them in his region. (AL and I have insisted annually that we have knowledgeable series folks at the Championships.)

Series/Race Directors do the best they can with experience and the written rules in front of them. When there's a judgement call to be made (i.e.- unwritten or ambiguous rules language), the RD's decision overrules the racers. As Glenn mentioned, the appeals process gives all racers the opportunity to question that judgement/decision and as we stated all weekend, we encourage that! (FYI...An AI racer and I BOTH learned something new last weekend during a pre-appeal over a CCR decision I made. I thanked him and he thanked me for digging into the rules.)

I'll refer to my notes this weekend and give you guys more facts, but I wanted to at least respond to some of the emotions here.

-=- Todd

PS- It was an awesome National Championship weekend and a huge congrats to our new Champion! (Amazing drive at COTA BTW....many, many signs of a true champion as mentioned.)
Todd Covini
American Iron Racing
National Series Director

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BADVENM
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Postby BADVENM » Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:29 am

The glove box door is a written rule...DQ. Punish those of us that read the rules instead of those who didnt? Selective rule enforcement is wrong. This philosophy is fine regionally I guess but we always say "make sure you fix this if you plan on going to Nationals."

I've had enough of the selective rule enforcement after attending three National championship events. I dont think I'm alone. If you're not going to follow the rulebook remove the rule.
NASA Rocky Mountain - Camaro-Mustang Challenge car #8 Team Incidental Contact
3rd Place CMC - 2010 NASA National Championship
3rd Place CMC - 2015 NASA West Coast Championship PTB

Sidney
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Postby Sidney » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:09 am

Todd Covini wrote:2) There is nothing in the rules about whether wheel weights or valve stems count toward the 18#.


7.31 Wheels/Tires
7.31.1 Wheels may be of any construction or material and must be 16 or 17 inch diameter.
7.31.2 16 inch wheels must weigh 16lbs or more. 17 inch wheels must weigh 18lbs or more. Wheels may not be wider than 9.5 inches.
7.31.3 Maximum tire size is 275/40R17 for all cars. The only tire allowed is the Toyo Proxes RA1.
7.31.4 Wheel spacers are allowed and wheels may have any offset.

Todd,

Exactly. There is nothing in the rules (see above) that says wheel weights or valve stems or SPACERS count toward the 18#. It's pretty "Black & White" that it says WHEELS. It doesn't say wheels and SPACERS must weigh 18 lbs. It doesn't say wheels and TIRES must weigh 18 lbs. It clearly says WHEELS must weigh 18 lbs. You don't buy WHEELS from Enkei that have various sizes of spacers in the bottom of the box. How can anyone that's been around CMC for any amount of time make that jump?

This class has been about "If it doesn't say you can then you can't." That's been preached from Todd, AL, Glenn, Tony, Matt...et al. since 2006 that I've been involved with CMC.

When exactly did that philosophy change?

Sidney

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Postby Sidney » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:26 am

Glenn wrote:
suck fumes wrote:Like I said the bare wheel with permanent spacer is 18pds. And according to Todd it is weighed "as raced" for tech so the weights would be included then.


Todd has been wrong a few times. Wheel weights do not count.


If Wheel weights do not count then how can Spacers count?

Sidney

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:31 am

Sidney.........
Tell me what is allowed to be done to wheel that will increase its weight and still be legal?
Paint
Powder coating
Wheel repair
Wheel widening

I all those examples the wheel is modified and the weight has been increased. Any of those actions can be done and if the weight of the wheel ends up at 18.0000lbs, the wheel is legal. Period. So here we have a spacer welded to a wheel and it isn't ok by you and a few others. The after mod weight is legal. He can have wheels custom made that are identical to what he has and they will be 100% legal per your position. The only difference is he had to spend custom wheel $'s to make you happy. Nothing has changed with the wheel only the route taken to get there. By the directors allowing what had been done here, this set-up is more attainable cost wise to more CMC racers. The flip side is guys with big bank will have custon cut wheels and the more we have guys winning on them the more it will appear they are required to win. That is not what we want. These wheels are off the shelf and only require a simple mod to meet the weight rule.
I feel your fustrated since you were not aware this was legal. And a small re-write of the rule could fix this. It was common knowledge amoung all directors.

I challenge you to dispute the facts I have just presented.
You also seem to have allot of mouth in this issue for someone who does not have a dog (car) in this fight.
Last edited by Glenn on Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Texas Region AI/CMC Series Director
Inferior Driver, Superior Platform…. since 2005.

Sidney
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Postby Sidney » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:33 am

BADVENM wrote:Read here for the ruling on wheel weights 5 years ago, its the last post from Al himself:

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/f ... s&start=15


Glenn,

Go read this thread and your posts then get back to me.

Sidney

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Postby Sidney » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:44 am

Glenn,

This is your quote from page 4 of the above thread:

guys - dont "what if" this to death. look at the rule, understand its intent. dont look for loopholes. the purpose of this class is to not out build a fellow racer.

My frustration is somewhere last winter the powers that be in Texas did not clearly repeat this message to Suck Fumes and possibly did just the opposite but that's for Al to address.

I have "Mouth" for this as I'm still passionate about Road Racing, V8 Pony Cars, NASA, and CMC. I have friends racing in this class. I have scars and a poorer bank account because of this passion. CMC has been more about drinking margaritas and racing then spending money and working on racecars. I drug my first Camaro out of a junkyard in 2001 and went through 2 more F-bodies before selling out and for the most part loved it all. I still have a NASA membership. Many, many members of NASA don't own racecars but still have a passion for racing and the rules that govern that. CMC was the least costly place to race V8's and that was mostly due to the very tight "Bookend" rules of specific parts and the Dyno along with the position of "If it doesn't say you can then you can't" philosophy.

To use your words Glenn: You Texas Guys - dont "what if" this to death. look at the rule, understand its intent. dont look for loopholes. the purpose of this class is to not out build a fellow racer.

Had Todd, Al, and yourself stayed true to these words...well there wouldn't have been 8 or 10 pages of bad feelings but 8 or 10 pages of how great Nationals was.

Sidney
Last edited by Sidney on Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:45 am

Sidney wrote:
BADVENM wrote:Read here for the ruling on wheel weights 5 years ago, its the last post from Al himself:

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/f ... s&start=15


Glenn,

Go read this thread and your posts then get back to me.

Sidney


I don't see the issue. Not sure what your trying to point out.
Texas Region AI/CMC Series Director

Inferior Driver, Superior Platform…. since 2005.

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:48 am

He dint exploit a loophole. He asked for clarification and then moved forward.
Texas Region AI/CMC Series Director

Inferior Driver, Superior Platform…. since 2005.

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:50 am

Sidney wrote:
Glenn wrote:
suck fumes wrote:Like I said the bare wheel with permanent spacer is 18pds. And according to Todd it is weighed "as raced" for tech so the weights would be included then.


Todd has been wrong a few times. Wheel weights do not count.


If Wheel weights do not count then how can Spacers count?

Sidney


It isn't a spacer anymore once weled to the wheel. It is now a custom made wheel.
Want to weld on your wheel weights..... fine. Legal.
Texas Region AI/CMC Series Director

Inferior Driver, Superior Platform…. since 2005.

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:51 am

Sidney wrote:
BADVENM wrote:Read here for the ruling on wheel weights 5 years ago, its the last post from Al himself:

http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/f ... s&start=15


Glenn,

Go read this thread and your posts then get back to me.

Sidney


I don't see the issue. Not sure what your trying to point out.
Texas Region AI/CMC Series Director

Inferior Driver, Superior Platform…. since 2005.


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