Please don't kill the noob...

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Steffeazy
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Please don't kill the noob...

Postby Steffeazy » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:10 am

I'm basically looking for insight into the advantages/ disadvantages of the different chassis allowed in CMC.

I don't want to get too far into the buy vs. build debate, because I have looked at CMC cars for sale that are great value compared to building. I've created build budgets for both Ford and GM vehicles to get an idea of what the numbers look like. While I'm still considering taking the buy route, there's still one problem... I've seen mostly GM cars for sale. This really isn't a problem for me because I was raised in a GM family.

The problem lies with my teammate. I've been telling a friend of mine that I work with about CMC for a long time now. Showing him the videos y'all post and sharing what I've seen at the races I've been to (Cresson and ECR). We talk all the time about how cool it would be to get on track, but how it probably is a little more money than either of us to justify right now. That's when I came up with the idea of co-driving a car. We'd be perfect candidates because we are very close to being the same size (people confuse us at work all the time). The problem is that he is a diehard Ford guy. Since he is probably more committed to his Ford allegiance that I am to GM, I was willing to go to the darkside and drive a Rustang (Plus he has a lot of spare parts at home).

I apologize for the lengthy post to finally get to my question, but I wanted to give a little background. Lately we've been leaning toward finding a SN95 (94/95) with a 302. Although, I am a little worried that the Fox might be a better chassis. It seems like there is a lot of them running in CMC. I know the rules are designed to make this a level playing field, but I was curious if anyone was willing to share their opinion. Another reason I have leaned to the SN95 is that he and I are on the larger side (6'3" and 270) and I thought it might be easier getting in and out of the slightly larger SN95 (I know roll cage design has a lot to do with this as well).

And don't worry GM folks. I haven't given up on convincing him to a drive a GM car. Thanks for the help!

Glenn
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Postby Glenn » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:57 am

Fords just need more parts to do what GM's do with mostly OEM parts. The rules limit the changes to keep the platforms equal. At any time it appears either has an advantage, adjustments are made.
Stock out of the box, GM all they way.
Built to the limit of the rules, get what you know best.
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t500hps
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Postby t500hps » Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:53 am

Glenn wrote:Fords just need more parts to do what GM's do with mostly OEM parts. The rules limit the changes to keep the platforms equal. At any time it appears either has an advantage, adjustments are made.
Stock out of the box, GM all they way.
Built to the limit of the rules, get what you know best.


I agree

BigT
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Postby BigT » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:01 pm

If they gave the fords all the good parts the gms have stock the mustang owners would not have to beat the hell out of cars to out run the gms. I drive a fox body and really like it, they take alot of work and tuning to get them to handle like the gms. But a well setup mustang will out run the gms just look at what suck fumes did to them with his when he ran nationals. Would I like a stiffer chassie, wider track width, torque arm suspension and coil over shocks and a engine that has to restricted to make legal hp and tq numbers, well who wouldn't
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Supercharged111
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Postby Supercharged111 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:14 pm

If I were to do a Ford, I think I'd do a Fox body. You can run them 150# lighter than an LT1 4th gen and with a 5.0, they'll make power where it matters all day long. For GM though I have to give the nod to the LS1 4th gen. They're the only cars that give me shit on the big end of a long straight. Then again, I've never faced the TX Fords on a fast track. I will say that there was 1 time I got a run on John Martin in his B cam SN95 Mustang onto the front straight of Pueblo (A CO track) and about halfway through 4th he walked me. Awesome thing about a restricted motor is that when it gets tired or has issues, you just run a bigger/no restrictor plate. There's also the lack of broken crankshafts on the GM side of the house. :D
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D. Francis
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Re: Please don't kill the noob...

Postby D. Francis » Mon Oct 12, 2015 6:19 am

Steffeazy wrote:I apologize for the lengthy post to finally get to my question, but I wanted to give a little background. Lately we've been leaning toward finding a SN95 (94/95) with a 302. Although, I am a little worried that the Fox might be a better chassis. It seems like there is a lot of them running in CMC. I know the rules are designed to make this a level playing field, but I was curious if anyone was willing to share their opinion. Another reason I have leaned to the SN95 is that he and I are on the larger side (6'3" and 270) and I thought it might be easier getting in and out of the slightly larger SN95 (I know roll cage design has a lot to do with this as well).
Two years ago did anybody think they would read that?

I'm going to say it this way - since results will, in many ways, come down to the driver's ability to be comfortable in the car, and you've expressed some level of concern there - do not discount that. If you can't get in/out of the car easily, and setup the driving position you will not have fun out there.

Regardless of your chassis choice you will get all the input you could possibly want as you guys get up to speed. IMO, at this point the series is really pretty well balanced.
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suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Mon Oct 12, 2015 9:34 am

The newer the car the better regardless of what manufacturer you choose. An old fox body will more than likely be tweeked and tired from being 25 yrs old. Yes it is true a ford will cost more to make competitive but I've never had any mechanical problems from my 4.6L and it puts down plenty of power to win. But that's also because it was completely built to the max rule set. A stock 5.0 or 4.6 won't get you the numbers without testing and rebuilding. I have driven an F body on track and I can honestly say they handle much worse than my car and are extremely tail happy.
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DAlgozine
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Postby DAlgozine » Mon Oct 12, 2015 1:38 pm

suck fumes wrote:The newer the car the better regardless of what manufacturer you choose. An old fox body will more than likely be tweeked and tired from being 25 yrs old. Yes it is true a ford will cost more to make competitive but I've never had any mechanical problems from my 4.6L and it puts down plenty of power to win. But that's also because it was completely built to the max rule set. A stock 5.0 or 4.6 won't get you the numbers without testing and rebuilding. I have driven an F body on track and I can honestly say they handle much worse than my car and are extremely tail happy.


I'll just add that set up is key on any car, and driving style is equally important. There are many different components and settings that make a car "worse" or better. And any car can be tuned to get rid of a pushy front end or a lose rear end.
Regarding tuning of a Ford 4.6 engine, I've seen some extremely favorable dyno curve graphs posted up here last year, but they are gone now, but I'm sure some of the Ford guys can assist if that's the way you go. So apparently, a stock 4.6 Ford engine does in fact have fantastic curves for road racing. I haven't seen anything that was as good as those 4.6 numbers , so maybe that's the "hot set up" ??
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cozog
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Postby cozog » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:45 am

Something to consider is maintenance costs.

We don't have many Ford drivers in our regions (GL/MW), but the ones we have seem to need pro built engines, both 5.0 and 4.6, to make usable power. And they seem to require rebuilds more frequently than the GM cars.

I'm not saying that's true everywhere and maybe it's just a matter of finding a good builder that can do it right the first time. But in general, I think our Ford guys are spending way more money on engine builds/rebuilds than the GM guys. Thousands more.
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MHISSTC
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Postby MHISSTC » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:15 am

First and foremost, drive what you like, what you know, and what you're comfortable in and willing to work on.

I personally prefer the look of the older cars like the foxes and 3rd gen GMs, just because that's the era I was a teen in and grew up always wanting those. I also have a '96 Cobra. As far as driving position, I don't feel like I'm sitting as deep in a FOX and I can see outside and around the car better than the SN95s or the 4th gen GMs.

We built (and rebuilt) a FOX hatch and I'm in the middle of building another FOX hatch. If you're looking strictly at the eventual competitiveness, and ease of making a car competitive, I wouldn't build a FOX or a 3rd gen GM. If I was a GM guy, I'd build the '98-'02 4th gen. As a Ford guy, I'd build an '03-'04 SN95 car with a fuel injected pushrod 5.0L V8 instead of the the 4.6L SOHC.
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Steffeazy
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Postby Steffeazy » Tue Oct 13, 2015 10:40 am

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I guess it makes sense to drive what you know or like. I've owned and raced mostly front wheel drive cars in my life, so I guess I don't really have a preference. The GM's seem too expensive (98-02) and the Fords need a lot of work... If money wasn't an option, I'd probably go for a 98-02 GM because I've always wanted to mess around with an LS. It's just hard to find one for a decent price.

The reason I felt like there might be some hidden advantage is from looking at the race results. Fords won 12 races and took 35 podium finishes to GM's 4 and 13 respectively. It's possible something else is skewing the numbers, but it's enough to make me want to dig deeper. Maybe I'm overthinking it. We had a saying for Nuclear Operators tendency to overthink things in the Navy, "Don't nuke it." Lol.

At any rate, thanks again for all the info. It's really cool seeing everyone willing to help a new guy like me out.

t500hps
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Postby t500hps » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:12 am

Steffeazy wrote:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I guess it makes sense to drive what you know or like. I've owned and raced mostly front wheel drive cars in my life, so I guess I don't really have a preference. The GM's seem too expensive (98-02) and the Fords need a lot of work... If money wasn't an option, I'd probably go for a 98-02 GM because I've always wanted to mess around with an LS. It's just hard to find one for a decent price.

The reason I felt like there might be some hidden advantage is from looking at the race results. Fords won 12 races and took 35 podium finishes to GM's 4 and 13 respectively. It's possible something else is skewing the numbers, but it's enough to make me want to dig deeper. Maybe I'm overthinking it. We had a saying for Nuclear Operators tendency to overthink things in the Navy, "Don't nuke it." Lol.


At any rate, thanks again for all the info. It's really cool seeing everyone willing to help a new guy like me out.



Results from one region are irrelevant. In Mid-atlantic, I don't remember a Camaro being on the podium all year yet when I went to Ohio recently it seems none of the fords are competitive. MA has mostly fords while GL seems to have mostly chevys.

As listed, build what you know/like. The costs will be roughly the same. The Ford in aftermarket changes, the Chevy in initial purchase price. (I wisely bought a competitive car! :))

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Postby Glenn » Tue Oct 13, 2015 11:48 am

Alot of the faster GM guys in Texas have stopped racing or reduced the number of events they run considerably.
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Postby TX#11CMC » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:02 pm

As mentioned, your GM will be a higher purchase price but will have very little expenses in areas the Ford needs them, specifically the motor / trans.
Both the LT1 and LS1 are virtually a restrict and run.
If going the 5.0L route you need Cobra heads, cam, intake, roller rockers, headers, MAF, T/B, possibly injectors, balancer, etc. You also run either a T5 that is suspect to breakage or spend money on an A5 or Tremec transmission.

Suspension wise you will probably spend a little more on the Mustang but not enough to be a deciding factor on what car to build.

If I were starting from scratch and building a Mustang I would personally go with a SN95/99. They are 50 lbs heavier than the Fox but that is offset with the slight advantage in aero, wheel base, and track width.
I love the 5.0 for the simplicity of the engine but the 4.6 feels awesome on track.

Regardless, keep asking as many questions as needed, and swing by the next event if available.
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Al Fernandez
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Re: Please don't kill the noob...

Postby Al Fernandez » Wed Oct 21, 2015 7:23 pm

I love it. All these posts and the results...inconclusive! hehe just like its supposed to be. It really is six of one or half dozen of the other. They each have little things that are nice and not so nice, but nothing that is a deal breaker. Like Glenn mentioned, if and when someone discovers a performance deal breaker it'll get legislated out of existence.
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