RCR #3, Ford 4.6 throttle bodies and plenums

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Al Fernandez
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RCR #3, Ford 4.6 throttle bodies and plenums

Postby Al Fernandez » Sat Sep 27, 2014 2:34 pm

As always, be civil in the discussion. The aim here is a cheap way to "make the numbers" with a normal 4.6L Ford.

1) Michael Gerowitz / Great Lakes and Midwest / 1998 Mustang GT #108 /
2) Engine 7.11.?
3) Allow 70mm aftermarket throttle body and aftermarket plenum
4a) Will decrease series cost because this rule proposal would open up alternative options to Ford drivers to make minimum horsepower and torque levels for series with cost effective option - larger throttle body opening and optimized airflow through plenum. Other option to make minimum horsepower and torque levels with the 4.6L SOHC motor requires a blueprinted motor at a significant cost increases.
4c/d) Allows for Mustangs with 4.6l to be more competitive to 350ci or LS based platforms that are using air restriction to met power limits.

Below is a graph (and the numbers so you can do your own playing around) of Mike's specific V8 after an aftermarket 70mm TB and matching plenum were installed alongside the lowest and highest 4.6L curves I could readily find.

[url]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k61/smikeevo/MGIntakeGraph2.gif[/IMG][/url]

[url]http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k61/smikeevo/MGIntakeGraph.gif[/IMG][/url]
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Smike
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Postby Smike » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:43 am

Thanks Al, Todd, and Bob D for getting this up in front of all.

Image

Image

ShadowBolt
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Postby ShadowBolt » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:05 am

So the torque is still not close. The three 4.6 engines I have had in my car have been close on h/p but 15 to 18 down on tq. I thought this was going to get the 4.6 to the numbers? Am I looking at this wrong?

JJ

Supercharged111
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Postby Supercharged111 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:02 am

I think the idea here is that it helps a less than fresh motor.
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Smike
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Postby Smike » Sun Sep 28, 2014 7:31 am

Correct, gets much closer to the numbers - 260/300 range.

Without the TB/P - 250/285 and severe drop off at high RPM.
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k61/smikeevo/cmcold-1.gif

With:
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k61/smikeevo/MGerowitzDyno7_2014.jpg

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Postby Spencer » Tue Sep 30, 2014 6:03 am

Thanks to Mike for putting all this together! This will be a easy bolt on for us 4.6 guys who have trouble making power.

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Postby Spencer » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:54 am

I am resubmitting this RCR that Mike Gerowitz submitted last year. I added some additional info and graph below to compare before & after numbers based on his dyno results. I posted a link on photobucket for the comparison graph at the end of the RCR. I have a 2000 mustang with a healthy 4.6 2v that has never been able to be achieve near the minimum HP/TQ requirement with legal modifications. Right now I am at 251HP/285TQ and have no other options for power adders. I don't want to have to tear apart the motor like others have done when the same gains can be achieved with a simple bolt on part.


1) Spencer Black / Great Lakes and Northeast / 2000 Mustang GT #176 /
2) Engine 7.11.?
3) Allow use of Trickflow Upper Plenum and throttle body combo Part # TFS-TFS-K51824070 for 4.6L 2V Ford Mustangs
4a) This will decrease series cost because it will eliminate the need for full motor teardowns and rebuilds to meet the minimum HP/TQ requirements that the 4.6L 2V Mustang historically has not been able to achieve with the current legal bolt on parts. To meet minimum requirements a full engine blueprint costing upwards of $3,000 plus many labor hours has been performed by many competitors. This is an unnecessary cost as the same outputs can be achieved by adding another legal bolt on part costing less than 10% of a rebuild or $280 shipped from Summit Racing. Furthermore in the case of an engine failure, the use of bolt on part would be easily transferred over to a stock replacement engine. Stock replacement 4.6L 2V engines are readily available from parts recyclers for less than 25% of a rebuild or $750. This would be an additional cost savings so competitors would not have to worry about high replacement costs if in fact a blueprinted fails.
4b) This modification has no impact on driver safety
4c) This would promote series growth because the it reduces the entry cost of building a new car for this series. Furthermore it will help retain competitors already in the series by eliminating the frustration on not being able to meet minimum HP/TQ requirements.
4d) This would improve competition because it allows this Ford cars with this engine platform to be competitive with higher powered platforms that have no issues meeting minimum HP/TQ requirements.
4e) This will provide more clarity by only allowing this specific throttle body/upper plenum combo to comply with current rules. Dyno results utilizing this part have been provided to show that it provides an additional 13 peak HP and 3 Peak TQ which is held in the upper RPM range.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh11 ... bdhbko.jpg
http://s85.photobucket.com/user/smikeev ... 1.gif.html
http://s85.photobucket.com/user/smikeev ... 4.jpg.html

suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:02 am

This is nice but you'd still have to bump conpression to get the torque you need. The HP increase is not very useful.
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Postby Glenn » Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:24 pm

I just ran my CMC car with an incorrect cam and it was way over on TQ and way down on HP. I got my ass handed to me. TQ aint everything.
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Postby Supercharged111 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:58 pm

It is when you're missing the hp target too. I ran 260/293 last year and really didn't get motored but I seem noticeably less vulnerable this year on the big end of a straight with 304tq. I think Aaron hit it though, when you bump the torque with compression the hp goes with it. After all, hp comes from torque. Not seeing the need to blow 3 grand on a build though, it's nothing more than a basic rebuild with a higher compression piston in place of a stock replacement you would have otherwise purchased. Cheap/easy way out is a junkyard Teksid block with PI 2V heads slapped on top. Run premium fuel or better and call it a day.
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suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:56 am

If you have at least 250ish hp then you'll be ok but if your torque is way under 300 then you don't have a chance. And adding another 14hp to make it 265 isn't going to make a lick of difference against a camaro if your tq is still way down. The reality is a junkyard ford motor of any kind isn't going to cut it. If you want to be competitive at a national level you need a motor that has been built by someone who knows what they are doing, not by some random $10/hr employee at a machine shop etc. You get what you pay for and Fords are not cheap. Compression is the easiest way to get both tq and hp and if you want to get the numbers close to the max rule set on a 4.6 you must run race gas. Pump gas won't get you there.
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Supercharged111
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Postby Supercharged111 » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:29 am

Would a junkyard teksid block be legal with 2V heads? I believe it came in the early 4V Cobras, so the motor itself is legal, but I wonder if it is with different heads? Seems like a sweet option for you 4.6 guys building cheater/ringer Mustangs. 8)
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suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:37 am

A 4.6 is a 4.6. Doesn't matter what block you use if you're still using the 2v PI heads.
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t500hps
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Postby t500hps » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:47 am

I haven't looked in a long time.......but I believe the Teksid block and PI heads are the best combination but isn't 11/1 compression the max allowed? Wouldn't 93 octane be fine with 11/1 compression?


(and does anyone know where a Teksid block is LOL)

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Postby DAlgozine » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:57 am

suck fumes wrote:The reality is a junkyard ford motor of any kind isn't going to cut it. If you want to be competitive at a national level you need a motor that has been built by someone who knows what they are doing, not by some random $10/hr employee at a machine shop etc. You get what you pay for and Fords are not cheap. Compression is the easiest way to get both tq and hp and if you want to get the numbers close to the max rule set on a 4.6 you must run race gas. Pump gas won't get you there.


Raises some questions:
Are the mods you suggest legal?
What can legally be modified internally that would exclude your typical engine shop?

An engine "needing" race fuel to operate properly, would have a higher compression then allowed by rules. And that would require a modified tune to run properly? Something like that 4.6 dyno curve that was temporarily listed here last here.
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