Clarification needed on tech procedure's

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DAlgozine
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Clarification needed on tech procedure's

Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:20 am

Two questions / clarifications:

One, it is my understanding that prior to the event, or at least prior to the race, race directors inform tech exactly what they want checked after qualifying or after a race. Does this list ever change ? If so, why? and who has the authority to change? I think there needs to be some transparency for this process.

Two, what's the proper procedure or rules relating to a car not being able to complete a dyno, if required to do so, and what is the procedure if it is determined that the car is or may be a hazard of catastrophic failure if put on the dyno, which could result in damage to the dyno?
If a car is "damaged" or is "broke",and is required to complete a dyno, ...., who determines if said car is safe to complete a dyno....., race director, head of tech, dyno operator, class director ??? And what happens if that car is unable to complete to complete or has a failure during the dyno test and can't complete the dyno ?

All I'm looking for are some guidelines and procedures to be in place for the future, so there is a clear path that gets followed , and racers know what the rule / procedure is ahead of time.
Currently , someone could use this inappropriately to sidestep a dyno . Who makes the call and what are the parameters?

I know , WTF..... trying to add to the rules ?? But similar situations have occurred at least twice to my knowledge and both at national type events. Seems worthy of some further clarification..
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Re: Clarification needed on tech procedure's

Postby Smike » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:35 am

DAlgozine wrote:Two questions / clarifications:

One, it is my understanding that prior to the event, or at least prior to the race, race directors inform tech exactly what they want checked after qualifying or after a race. Does this list ever change ? If so, why? and who has the authority to change? I think there needs to be some transparency for this process.

Two, what's the proper procedure or rules relating to a car not being able to complete a dyno, if required to do so, and what is the procedure if it is determined that the car is or may be a hazard of catastrophic failure if put on the dyno, which could result in damage to the dyno?
If a car is "damaged" or is "broke",and is required to complete a dyno, ...., who determines if said car is safe to complete a dyno....., race director, head of tech, dyno operator, class director ??? And what happens if that car is unable to complete to complete or has a failure during the dyno test and can't complete the dyno ?

All I'm looking for are some guidelines and procedures to be in place for the future, so there is a clear path that gets followed , and racers know what the rule / procedure is ahead of time.
Currently , someone could use this inappropriately to sidestep a dyno . Who makes the call and what are the parameters?

I know , WTF..... trying to add to the rules ?? But similar situations have occurred at least twice to my knowledge and both at national type events. Seems worthy of some further clarification..


Dave - not clear here.

All CCR items may be checked in Tech. What gets checked does not really matter. Anything is in play.

Please clarify number 2. If you finish the race, car is still running - correct? If the car has an aftermarket portal or has become a fog machine - it can't be dyno'd. The dyno operator should inform the race director of state of the car (they wont want to put it up there if it risks damaging the dyno or rest of runs needed).

If the car was involved in an on-track incident - race director will be reviewing the report. If you are given a dyno slip - that is the time to discuss with the director on needed that dyno. Finishing positions in the race are likely under view due to that incident too. Track incidents will take precedent over dyno results.

I have not seen someone claim they can't dyno a working car after a race to not be transparent about power. I have seen dyno operators not properly test a car and have an over-powered car pass due to that.

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Postby BADVENM » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:51 am

In Rocky Mountain region we (the racers) can suggest items to be checked by our director, he can include them (with his or her own list if they have one) or ignore them. I like this because it gets us all involved in the process and in a way calm our nerves if we suspect someone is questionable and find out otherwise.

Sometimes we even check "non performance enhancing items", you know, the ones that are in the rule book but are never enforced at a National championship event. Go figure.
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Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:52 am

Examples of number 2 in my post:
4th gear is broke or other trans issue

Lifter is broke or other engine issue. Engine may not stay together for the dyno test if run at max RPM

Rear end is broke. car limped off track. could come apart on the dyno

On track damage - No fault of driver, but dyno operator won't put this car on his dyno. pass or no pass

Ran out of gas - How much to put in to make a dyno pull and how does race weight get determined, or no gas equals no dyno and DQ

Engine won't make the redline on the dyo, due to some mechanical issue. Still runs, but is way off. This "incident" occurred on the last lap, and not indicative of how the car ran the other 99% of the race

Im sure there other scenario's, but you get my point

Whats the procedure and who decides ?
Last edited by DAlgozine on Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:54 am

BADVENM wrote:In Rocky Mountain region we (the racers) can suggest items to be checked by our director, he can include them (with his or her own list if they have one) or ignore them. I like this because it gets us all involved in the process and in a way calm our nerves if we suspect someone is questionable and find out otherwise.

Sometimes we even check "non performance enhancing items", you know, the ones that are in the rule book but are never enforced at a National championship event. Go figure.


Great, but is the list made before the race or after? Should be, before in my book. Who can decide not to check an item that is already on "the list" for that session?
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Postby BADVENM » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:34 am

As far as an answer to #2, not sure if this helps or not but couldn't the CMC director, race director (if representing the CMC director) seal the hood until repairs are made then dyno the vehicle?

I think (for other reasons) we sealed the hood of one or two of our fellow drivers 2 or 3 years ago and had them redyno at the same facility that we normally do it at at the beginning of the new race season. The CMC director, fellow CMC racer, etc would attend the redyno to verify results.

So, could this work for your example(s)? Simply seal the hood until the needed repairs are done then dyno/redyno the vehicle.
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Postby D. Francis » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:38 pm

DAlgozine wrote:On track damage - No fault of driver, but dyno operator won't put this car on his dyno. pass or no pass
For this one and several others, talk to the race director and come up with a plan. Or, since it's supposed to be "fun," maybe reposition to last? Yes, that's meant a bit tongue in cheek to stir the pot. But, do you really want/expect to claim a regional title while indefinitely sidestepping a dyno?

Yes, it could be expensive and/or time consuming to get the car back in shape in a short amount of time to meet an agreed upon dyno date.

DAlgozine wrote:Ran out of gas - How much to put in to make a dyno pull and how does race weight get determined, or no gas equals no dyno and DQ
Same way every car's race weight is determined - it doesn't matter how much gas is in it RIGHT NOW, put it on the scales in tech, including driver as raced, with every other car being weighed. It would not be the first (or last) time a CMC car is pushed across the scales. If it is outright underweight or later blows the dyno it's a DQ.

Almost to a person, all the CMC folks I've raced with have an attitude to bring a legal car or take responsibility if it turns out they didn't. Including when an inadvertant mult-year rule infraction was discovered. Or when they post a number on the national dyno the car couldn't even dream of.

I don't think the question are out of line, but to me it illustrates why the sportsmanship/competition/car foundation FUNdamentals are important to the class.

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Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:52 pm

This exact scenario played out in American Iron at Championship in Salt Lake City in 09 and there was a similar situation this year in Atlanta at the East Championship. I'm sure there have been other situations regionally. Not commenting on right or wrong, but personally I would prefer something to clarify further.
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Postby Den34 » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:27 pm

Dave
As your series director I will be happy to explain.
As directors we have a online form to fill out and it can be filled out for every event at the beginning of the season or can be filled out prior to each race. I choose the latter and do it about one to two weeks before the event. On the form you can choose Saturday qual, Sat Race, Sunday Qual and Sunday race. You then choose Dyno, wieght and Mechanical. You can choose one two or all and there is a notes section to specifically check a mechanical item and I will fill that out. As to what is checked mechanically that is my choice and direction. I am willing to take requests from the racers. Some can be honored and some may not it just depends on the circumstance.
Since I am a active racer I have intended to implement a form for the other racers to fill out in case they want me to be inspected. I would pass out blank forms to all the racers so at anytime you wnated tech to check me all that would be needed is to give the form to tech. I apologise but have not yet implemented this in 2014. I will have it available in 2015 since we only have one race to go.
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Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:51 pm

Den34 wrote:Dave
As your series director I will be happy to explain.
As directors we have a online form to fill out and it can be filled out for every event at the beginning of the season or can be filled out prior to each race. I choose the latter and do it about one to two weeks before the event. On the form you can choose Saturday qual, Sat Race, Sunday Qual and Sunday race. You then choose Dyno, wieght and Mechanical. You can choose one two or all and there is a notes section to specifically check a mechanical item and I will fill that out. As to what is checked mechanically that is my choice and direction. I am willing to take requests from the racers. Some can be honored and some may not it just depends on the circumstance.
Since I am a active racer I have intended to implement a form for the other racers to fill out in case they want me to be inspected. I would pass out blank forms to all the racers so at anytime you wnated tech to check me all that would be needed is to give the form to tech. I apologise but have not yet implemented this in 2014. I will have it available in 2015 since we only have one race to go.
Bob



Thanks for the info
Is this how other regions operate?
Is this the same process for national events?
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Re: Clarification needed on tech procedure's

Postby Glenn » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:29 pm

Disclaimer - I have only read the first post.
Saw this earlier today, but had to wait till I got home to reply.

One, it is my understanding that prior to the event, or at least prior to the race, race directors inform tech exactly what they want checked after qualifying or after a race. Does this list ever change ? If so, why? and who has the authority to change? I think there needs to be some transparency for this process.


In the Texas Region...... I turn in a list prior to the race weekend normally 7 days before. It is sent to NASA Chief of Tech.
My list constantly changes. I pick an item (normally 3-5 different things per weekend) and once it is picked, that section of the rulebook is marked so I don't pick it again. the goal is to pick as many items as possible. I often ask my guys to offer up suggestions of things they would like to see checked. I don't get any takers normally. Years ago prior to the involvement of the Tech Shed, I had the rules put on index cards and had someone from the group pick one at random (cards face down). Later we moved to the current method.
As for who has the authority to change.... we here it is me. I can completely wave off tech post race, pre race and during the race. I can also pick additional items at will. I don't normally do this, but it has happened.

As for transparency.....
Surely you don't mean we post what we will check in advance do you? Sort of defeats the purpose. I assume I don't understand the question and will allow you to follow up and clarify.





Two, what's the proper procedure or rules relating to a car not being able to complete a dyno, if required to do so, and what is the procedure if it is determined that the car is or may be a hazard of catastrophic failure if put on the dyno, which could result in damage to the dyno?
If a car is "damaged" or is "broke",and is required to complete a dyno, ...., who determines if said car is safe to complete a dyno....., race director, head of tech, dyno operator, class director ??? And what happens if that car is unable to complete to complete or has a failure during the dyno test and can't complete the dyno ?


Obviously if the car is broke, the car should not/cannot be dyno'ed. Since the goal of compliance checks is to validate legality, that cannot be done if the car is broken. HOWEVER>>>>>>> We have has issues here (not CMC) where a car was picked (top 4 of the weekend - decided in advance) and one of the top 4 claimed his motor was hurt. He had just won the last race of the weekend and had run the fastest laps of the race in the last 2-3 laps of the last race. Once he was informed of the intent to dyno his (and others) car, he claimed a mechanical. We let him know if he failed to dyno or prove to us there was an issue, he would be DQ'ed for the previous race and the race prior to that (allowed by the rules). He took the DQ.When he returned a year later, we informed him he still had a dyno spot inspection that he needed to perform prior to collecting points. His motor blew in Friday test and tune. Has not been back since.

So the racer always has the right to refuse. There could be penalties if he/she does. If they can prove their case, the dyno requirement is dropped. No need to dyno when they arrive w/ a new/fresh motor, it wouldn't prove anything w/ regards to the old motor that was in question or being checked at random. The Series Director, Race Director and Regional Director can all get involved. The racer can always appeal.
If the motor fails during the dyno test, then that can get strange. We can work w/ the data collected (if there is less than 3 pulls or whatever the class requires). We can grant a pass. We can call BS. The short answer is each situation is different and a judgment c all will be made. And again, an appeal can be filed. At which point another judgment call will be made albeit from a higher level.


Likely not what you wanted to hear. My guess is all the rules we need are already in place. You asked about the dyno check specifically. But the same scenario can be used for checking a wheel. A racer can claim the wheel was damaged and any check would be invalid. Obviously that will be determined by an Official, and not the racer. By trying to put some guidelines down on paper, the result will more often be unintended loopholes that will allow a greater chance of willful non-compliance.

If history is any indication, all of the above will be used against me and the following quote will be posted - "Well that is just stupid!"


I will now go back and read the other reply's.
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Postby Glenn » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:32 pm

Ran out of gas - How much to put in to make a dyno pull and how does race weight get determined, or no gas equals no dyno and DQ


If the car is towed off track, it's weight will be documented (as it finished) and then if a dyno is required, fuel will be added to allow for the testing.
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Postby Glenn » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:34 pm

As far as an answer to #2, not sure if this helps or not but couldn't the CMC director, race director (if representing the CMC director) seal the hood until repairs are made then dyno the vehicle?


Yes. That can be done.
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Postby Glenn » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:42 pm

To comment further on what Bob said.
My car gets checked by someone other than me. I know my car is in 100% compliance*** and I am never worried. I have said often and it is common knowledge that anyone at anytime can check anything on my car. I often let other drive it on track as well. Nothing to hide.
If anyone feels the Series Directors are not in compliance or ate "tech'ing" only the items they know they will pass, the solution is as simple as talking with your Race Director (should not be anyone who races in your class). If that fails, the Regional Director should be your next stop and both the series directors and race directors both answer to the regional. NASA HQ would love to talk w/ you if you feel your region is operating unfairly.



I do not think my car has ever been found to be in non-compliance in the 10 years I have been w/ the series. This is to include 4 National events (2006-2009). I have been found under weight once. The result was a free pass as the RD ran the race 10 minutes longer than announced and I was light by well under 10 lbs. About a gallon and a half of fuel. At the time, I normally cane off track 5 lbs over. I don't do that any longer.
Last edited by Glenn on Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby DAlgozine » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:45 pm

Glenn,

My short reply, your response is exactly what I was looking for. And yes, I would prefer better framed guidelines, but maybe its not reasonable. But I think it warrants discussion.

And no, transparency doesn't mean getting the info ahead of time.

Regionally for me, it has been spot on. My inquiry stems from several "odd" situations that have occurred in both AI and CMC, all of which have been at National events. For such an important event the handling of situations can be improved
Dave Algozine

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