2014 RCR #2 LS in third gens

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Al Fernandez
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2014 RCR #2 LS in third gens

Postby Al Fernandez » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:43 pm

Thanks Robert for a well thought out recommendation to allow the LS motors in the third gen GM body. Please be considerate in your discussion.

1) Robert Salus, Midwest, #24
2) Rule 7.11.1 and 7.14
3) Any 4.6 Ford, 5.0,(302 Ford or 305 GM), 5.7 liter LT1/LS1 GM V8 production engine, in OEM stock configuration unless otherwise stated in these rules, that was originally offered in an eligible model car is legal. Cobra R model engines (Ford) and LT4 (GM/Chevrolet) engines or engine components are prohibited. Additionally, early GM cars may run any LT-1 or LS-1 from the 93-02 Late GM cars as long as the stock LT1 or LS1 engine controlling electronics are maintained.

7.14 GM 5.3L LS Engine Option

Late and early GM cars may substitute the engine long block assembly with the 5.3L LS series LM7, L59, LM4, and L33 long block assembly from 1999-2004 GM trucks. The intake, exhaust manifolds, and all external
accessories and electronics from the Late GM 5.7L cars must be retained. The camshaft from the Late GM 5.7L cars may be used.

4)(a) I am proposing allowing LS1 engines to be introduced into early GM cars. I believe that allowing these engines, with the 5.3 option allows for a more reliable and, therefore, less costly option to the LT1. As time goes on, parts for LT1’s become harder to find and more expensive. The optispark has been a continued source of failure on many cars and at $400 to replace, it hardly makes the engine cost effective to run. An LS1 can easily be swapped into and early GM car with virtually no modification to the car.
4(b) I believe allowing this option will promote series growth as it will give racer’s the option of running a much more popular and reliable motor at a low price. During this last summer I purchased a 5.3 LS1 with 30,000 miles on it for $600. I believe it also add’s a “cool” factor. Seeing the older cars with a modern LS1 engine definitely catches people’s eyes and gets them to talk about the car.
4(d) Allowing an LS1 will improve competition as it will allow the older cars to have the same, more reliable engine as the later generation. The adoption of this rule may slow down the trend of racer’s moving to the newer generation and could help extend the life of CMC.
Al Fernandez
CMC Chief National Director

D. Francis
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Postby D. Francis » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:01 am

As a 4th gen LT1 guy, I generally like this idea as a hardware only plug and play.

Hasn't Denton been running this combo on a "test" basis? Is there dyno and result information compiled to share?

What are the realistic 3rd gen camaro/firebird transmission options with the LS motor?
David Francis
#39 CMC Camaro
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Supercharged111
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Postby Supercharged111 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:38 pm

I say the powers that be call out a specific engine mount kit to locate the engine so we don't end up with arguments over weight distribution advantages (aluminum block notwithstanding, you just eat the same weight penalty as a 4th gen there). Now will the Ford guys want to swap 4.6s in and will they feel left in the cold?
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Smike
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Postby Smike » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:20 am

Supercharged111 wrote: Now will the Ford guys want to swap 4.6s in and will they feel left in the cold?


Yes.

Please to have LS1?

Smike
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Postby Smike » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:34 am

In all seriousness. Get all options in front for review?

94-04 SN95 Mustang:
FI 4.6l 281ci SOHC
FI 4.6l 281ci DOHC (Cobra/Mach1 motor)
FI 5.0 302 ci
Carb 302 ci

3rd Gen:
FI 305 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci
FI FI LS Based LM7, L59, LM4, and L33 323 ci (requested)

4th Gen:
FI LT1 350 ci
FI LS1 350 ci
FI LS Based LM7, L59, LM4, and L33 323 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci
Last edited by Smike on Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

BryanL
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Postby BryanL » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:36 am

Smike wrote:In all seriousness. Get all options in front for review?

94-04 SN95 Mustang:
FI 4.6l 281ci SOHC
FI 4.6l 281ci DOHC (Cobra/Mach1 motor)
FI 5.0 302 ci
Carb 302 ci

3rd Gen:
FI 305 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci
FI LS3 323 ci (requested)

4th Gen:
FI LT1 350 ci
FI LS1 350 ci
FI LS3 323 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci

Please make sure you have the right options listed. The Carb 305/350 isn't an option for a 4th Gen. It also doesn't have an LS3 availabe. The 4th GEN only has the LT1, and LS in either 5.7 or 5.3.

Smike
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Postby Smike » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:44 am

BryanL wrote:
Smike wrote:In all seriousness. Get all options in front for review?

94-04 SN95 Mustang:
FI 4.6l 281ci SOHC
FI 4.6l 281ci DOHC (Cobra/Mach1 motor)
FI 5.0 302 ci
Carb 302 ci

3rd Gen:
FI 305 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci
FI LS Based LM7, L59, LM4, and L33 323 ci

4th Gen:
FI LT1 350 ci
FI LS1 350 ci
FI LS Based LM7, L59, LM4, and L33 323 ci
Carb 305 ci
Carb 350 ci


Please make sure you have the right options listed. The Carb 305/350 isn't an option for a 4th Gen. It also doesn't have an LS3 availabe. The 4th GEN only has the LT1, and LS in either 5.7 or 5.3.


Updated - LM7, L59, LM4, and L33.

How is the carb not an option for 4th gen?

7.12 Ford Spec Carbureted Engine Option
Any of the following unmodified aftermarket components (and only these components) may be substituted
on a CMC legal Ford 5.0 liter (302ci) V8 long block to create a carbed, spec Ford engine:
1. Holley carburetor 600cfm-4bbl #4776
2. Edelbrock Performer or Performer RPM intake manifolds #2121, #7121, #7521
3. Ford Racing B303 camshaft
4. Ford OEM distributor (non-computer controlled)

7.13 GM Spec Carbureted Engine Option
Any of the following unmodified aftermarket components (and only these components) may be substituted
on a CMC legal GM V8 long block to create a carbed, spec engine:

5.0 liter (305ci)
1. Holley carburetor 600cfm-4bbl #4776
2. Edelbrock Performer intake manifold #2101, #2104, #2116, #7116, #7516
3. Edelbrock Performer Cam kit #2102 or Comp Cams #12-238-2
4. GM L31 #12558060 or L30 #12552520/12558059 heads
5. GM OEM H.E.I. distributor (non-computer controlled)

5.7 liter (350ci)
1. Holley carburetor 600cfm-4bbl #4776
2. Edelbrock Performer intake manifold #2101, #2104, #2116, #7116, #7516
3. GM Camshaft #24502476
4. GM L31 #12558060 or L30 #12552520/12558059 heads
5. GM OEM H.E.I. distributor (non-computer controlled)

BryanL
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Re: 2014 RCR #2 LS in third gens

Postby BryanL » Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:52 am

Al Fernandez wrote: 4)(a) I am proposing allowing LS1 engines to be introduced into early GM cars. I believe that allowing these engines, with the 5.3 option allows for a more reliable and, therefore, less costly option to the LT1. As time goes on, parts for LT1’s become harder to find and more expensive. The optispark has been a continued source of failure on many cars and at $400 to replace, it hardly makes the engine cost effective to run. An LS1 can easily be swapped into and early GM car with virtually no modification to the car.
4(b) I believe allowing this option will promote series growth as it will give racer’s the option of running a much more popular and reliable motor at a low price. During this last summer I purchased a 5.3 LS1 with 30,000 miles on it for $600. I believe it also add’s a “cool” factor. Seeing the older cars with a modern LS1 engine definitely catches people’s eyes and gets them to talk about the car.
4(d) Allowing an LS1 will improve competition as it will allow the older cars to have the same, more reliable engine as the later generation. The adoption of this rule may slow down the trend of racer’s moving to the newer generation and could help extend the life of CMC.

This has been discussed several times and would likely be the class killer.
4a-The LT1 isn't required in a 3rd Gen so it's shortcomings shouldn't be considered. Please explain how it will be cheaper than running the current allowed 305/350 options? Most people don't know the true cost of a swap as it isn't simply a $600 long block from a junk yard. I also don't see how it's more reliable than a traditional SBC? To make the LS more reliable you need to consider a modified oil pump, rod bolts, windage tray, accusump, etc.
4b-Again-what is the true cost of the swap? So you bought a 5.3 for $600. You then need different accessories, intake, throttle body, air filter setup, wiring, computer, exhaust, motor mounts, etc. What about the transmission? Do we allow the t56? How will the clutch/pressure plate setup work? Itemize it to see if it's over $5k. An LS in a 3rd gen is cool but I have never seen a rule passed because it would be cool.
4c?
4d-From what I have witnessed the 3rd Gen is plenty competitive and there are still people who believe a SBC is reliable. It's inevitable that racers will gravitate towards newer cars. (just look at how many SI cars were at Nats). How many people show up for a DE weekend in an 88 Iroc compared to a new 5.0?

BryanL
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:12 am

Postby BryanL » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:05 am

7.11.1 Any 4.6 Ford, 5.0,(302 Ford or 305 GM), 5.7 liter LT1/LS1 GM V8 production engine, in OEM stock configuration unless otherwise stated in these rules, that was originally offered in an eligible model car is legal. Cobra R model engines (Ford) and LT4 (GM/Chevrolet) engines or engine components are prohibited. Additionally, early GM cars may run any LT-1 from the 93-97 Late GM cars as long as the stock LT1 engine controlling electronics are maintained.

Carb of traditional SBC was never offered in a 4th Gen so it isn't legal.

Smike
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:10 am

Postby Smike » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:21 am

BryanL wrote:7.11.1 Any 4.6 Ford, 5.0,(302 Ford or 305 GM), 5.7 liter LT1/LS1 GM V8 production engine, in OEM stock configuration unless otherwise stated in these rules, that was originally offered in an eligible model car is legal. Cobra R model engines (Ford) and LT4 (GM/Chevrolet) engines or engine components are prohibited. Additionally, early GM cars may run any LT-1 from the 93-97 Late GM cars as long as the stock LT1 engine controlling electronics are maintained.

Carb of traditional SBC was never offered in a 4th Gen so it isn't legal.


By that ruling a carb motor was never offered in the 94-04. So no Ford can run the carb spec motor?
Last edited by Smike on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sidney
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Location: Bloomington, IL

Re: 2014 RCR #2 LS in third gens

Postby Sidney » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:37 am

BryanL wrote: 4d-From what I have witnessed the 3rd Gen is plenty competitive...


You have data to back that up? Regional Championships? Any National Champions...ever (Since CMC1&2 were combined)?

Sidney

ShadowBolt
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Re: 2014 RCR #2 LS in third gens

Postby ShadowBolt » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:01 am

Sidney wrote:
BryanL wrote: 4d-From what I have witnessed the 3rd Gen is plenty competitive...


You have data to back that up? Regional Championships? Any National Champions...ever (Since CMC1&2 were combined)?

Sidney


Not trying to be an ass but we had a guy a few years ago (dropped out the last year of CMC1) that set track records (some may still stand) in a Third gen at CMC1 power on 16's. Jeff Wirtz I believe could have won several National championships.

JJ

suck fumes
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Postby suck fumes » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:19 am

Yep it's not the car it's the driver! Any car can win with the right prep/driver combo. Sorry to be an ass too but it's true.
2013 CMC NATIONAL CHAMPION

Motorsportheaven.com

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BADVENM
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Postby BADVENM » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:45 am

In 2013 our Rocky Mountain CMC director Brad (3rd gen Camaro) placed 3rd.
In 2012...Brad (same 3rd gen) placed 5th.
In 2011 Brad (same 3rd gen) placed 1st.
In 2010...Brad (same 3rd gen) placed 2nd.
In 2009 Brad (same 3rd gen) placed 2nd.

So, I would say his 3rd gen was very competitive. :)
Last edited by BADVENM on Thu Sep 18, 2014 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ShadowBolt
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Location: Georgetown, TX

Postby ShadowBolt » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:40 am

Jeff Burch was about as fast and anyone anywhere in his third Gen. At Hallett he was in a class by himself. I think he smoked a cig. during the race. Hallett is a race everyone in Texas wants to win and fields are very large so he did this against a large field not just a few cars. Another racer we lost because of CMC2.
I know he won one National championship (at least). Maybe he only went to one. The third gen makes a very good race car.

JJ


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